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 Post subject: Minor/Major stat rework
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2016, 21:12 
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Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 00:28
Posts: 60
Hello dear transformania addicts~

First, a bit of game theory. In many games, power balance should be distributed evenly. This opens up various strategies and generally makes the game more diverse, less predictable and most importantly, fun.
There are many ways to "balance" items / stats. Lets go over what TT uses real quick.

1. Limited inventory. This is perhaps the most of popular method, used in almost every game.
In TT, if you max Luck items, you won't have enough inventory to hold other stats.
Same for levels, once you chose a stat, you essentially "waste" a perk and can not chose another stat.

2. Items with negative effects. Such as an item which gives you +15 charisma at the cost of -5 agility.
This works okayish, if you want to gain more charisma than you could get via limited inventory, you can choose another stat as a sacrifice.

3. Stats with negative effects. Such as charisma reducing your defenses.
Does not make much sense lore-wise, but it is not a bad method to balance.

2 and 3 are okay ways to balance, except...... when they are used together. And this is the case in TT.
This is problematic, because suddenly the negative you get from the second point, becomes positive via third.

Simple example is Bat Wing Brooch item. It gives +15 discipline and -5 charisma. In turn, if you do some minor math, it simply gives you what +17 discipline would give you.
Now, all the items were supposed to give +10 net stat value, yet for this item...... the net value +17. This is the reason why it is also the most popular "meta" item.

Another example, would be Fuzzy Green Handcuffs, they give +15 disc and -5 agility. Still +10 net stat gain, but the actual gain is much higher.
Not only you get +15 disc, you also get a bit of.......... perception. Yes, negative agility breaks down into positive perception!
In other words, this (actually most popular) item, removes the need of any perception in your build!

In fact, if you see anyone's build, at least for those players who have a few ideas about the game, you will see really low amounts of agility. -50 or even lower!
Pretty much any negative agility items are extremely popular nowadays, yet the rest of items rarely see the light of the day.

So, my proposal, remove (3) entirely. Every red number in https://www.transformaniatime.com/Item/ShowStatsTable becomes 0.
Since also this makes it too easy to stack both max disc and max charisma, both stats get an additional nerf.

The motivation is that you should be able to max at most one stat - in other words, you have to choose between max char or max disc, not both at the same time.
Latter isn't a choice.... if it is possible, it will be a necessity, and it would ruin item diversity once again.

In summary:
Code:
For Discipline:
SpellExtraTFEnergyPercent: -0.3 -> 0
SpellExtraHealthDamagePercent: -0.5 -> 0
SpellHealthDamageResistance: 0.75 -> 0.5
SpellTFEnergyDamageResistance:  0.75 -> 0.5

For Charisma:
HealthBonusPercent: -0.125 -> 0
SpellExtraTFEnergyPercent: 0.5 -> 0.4
SpellExtraHealthDamagePercent: 1 -> 0.75
SpellHealthDamageResistance: -0.5 -> 0
SpellTFEnergyDamageResistance:  -0.5 -> 0

For Agility:
SpellMisfireChanceReduction: -0.15 -> 0


For PvP, this mostly means item swaps are not as effective as before. Since with this change simply removing your discipline items means nothing to your damage.
They can still be _effective_, just not as much as before, removing +10 disc -5 char item, will give you +5 charisma bonus.

By the way, if you think meta or any of such discussions have no place in a fetish game, please ignore this thread and go do what you came here to do.
Please also discuss stats and stats changes only. For other changes and proposals, create a separate thread. One thing at a time.


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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2016, 00:30 
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Joined: 12 May 2014, 23:29
Posts: 1007
Game name: changes every player
This stats are currently up on the test server. Also, bonus damage from level has been removed entirely.


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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2016, 05:09 
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014, 22:47
Posts: 243
Game name: Elyn Kitsu
I know I've been MIA from the game for a while now and I realize this post isn't constructive but.... you're literally killing me <3


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 12:44 
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Joined: 11 Nov 2014, 16:51
Posts: 101
Disc is still way too strong and it'll continue making PvP a boring slogfest. The magicka change to TF energy is nice though. I'd say consider something like making fortitude allow you to use an extra item per turn or something. Maybe halve the DR benefit from disc and make it give more willpower. Charisma could also probably use a bit of nerfing, the meta right now is to stack disc and charisma to cap dr at 50% then have 100 wp damage, dumb. Luck can potentially counter disc with crits but yeah, you basically are relying on critting just to match the damage of having a ton of charisma.

Resto cleanses are still pretty crazy once you get around 8-10 extra cleanse, especially with levels. Might want to remove the extra bonus WP for cleanses from levels maybe. Nobody is going to beat a level 8 cleansing for 35 3x a turn with a ton of disc.

Another thought - maybe hard cap disc at 50 dr instead of making the extra DR that goes past it just reduce the attacker's wp damage. Being a tanky god is currently extremely easy to attain even with level 1 items.


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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2016, 00:34 
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Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 00:28
Posts: 60
Nerati2 wrote:
Disc is still way too strong and it'll continue making PvP a boring slogfest. The magicka change to TF energy is nice though. I'd say consider something like making fortitude allow you to use an extra item per turn or something. Maybe halve the DR benefit from disc and make it give more willpower. Charisma could also probably use a bit of nerfing, the meta right now is to stack disc and charisma to cap dr at 50% then have 100 wp damage, dumb. Luck can potentially counter disc with crits but yeah, you basically are relying on critting just to match the damage of having a ton of charisma.


You can't nerf both, since it will result in exactly same situation. If you stack to 50%, with level 1 items, max bonus damage you will get is 100%, which is, 20 wp damage (40 with level scaling for level 11.... but not 100 wp as you suggested). I agree on the discipline nerf, but not sure how exactly. The reason everyone stacks it at 50% is because of tf energy, so probably that needs to be lower (tf energy gain from charisma). It will be more clear once the round ends.

I also wonder why no one builds magicka, if all the fights in the end are still about tf energy. But it seems the preferred tf energy 'meta' is "ignore tf energy and then whine because your opponent picks up a buff and cleanses it all off."
Let's wait and see. The main purpose of this change was to remove super aggressive level scaling (level1 no longer does 0 damaage) and to remove item imbalance (caused by negative stats giving positive values).

Nerati2 wrote:
Resto cleanses are still pretty crazy once you get around 8-10 extra cleanse, especially with levels. Might want to remove the extra bonus WP for cleanses from levels maybe. Nobody is going to beat a level 8 cleansing for 35 3x a turn with a ton of disc.

Well, if a person dumps everything into disc and restoration, that person _is_ supposed to be hard to bring down. They should not have stat points for anything else though.

Nerati2 wrote:
Another thought - maybe hard cap disc at 50 dr instead of making the extra DR that goes past it just reduce the attacker's wp damage. Being a tanky god is currently extremely easy to attain even with level 1 items.

Caps is a very terrible design. It will just make sure everyone will have DR at 50%, in other words, changes nothing.
Any build should be attainable by level 1 items, that is kinda the purpose of items - to put you on a certain path, either tank or something else.

But I agree, disc will 'probably' see a nerf after this round ends. I would like to see some fights first, before suggesting anything...


Last edited by Marisa on 20 Dec 2016, 04:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2016, 03:23 
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014, 02:37
Posts: 467
Game name: Kari Pink
Marisa wrote:
Caps is a very terrible design. It will just make sure everyone will have DR at 50%, in other words, changes nothing.


If it is that easy to reach the cap, it doesn't mean caps are the terrible design. It means itemization is screwed. :P


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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2016, 04:05 
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Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 02:43
Posts: 158
Game name: Chastity Meerkat
Marisa wrote:
Caps is a very terrible design. It will just make sure everyone will have DR at 50%, in other words, changes nothing.
Any build should be attainable by level 1 items, that is kinda the purpose of items - to put you on a certain path, either tank or something else.
Flat caps are usually a pretty poor design choice (one reason that I've always been skeptical of the way Bonus Damage and Resist works in TT), however a number of games have been successful with scaling caps. A level one character might be capped at +6 but a level two character might raise their caps to +9 or whatever.

However, for that to work as a balance, there needs to be some kind of limited resource gain from leveling; it wouldn't function effectively in TT since all but a tiny fraction of a characters 'stat' points are provided by items. It's always been a little baffling to me that items provide so many points, even without the extra ones gained from penalties to off stats.

In our pretend example if a character going from level one to two gained only three stat points they could continue maintaining a single stat at the cap but their other attributes would suffer as a result. (Note that giving a character only enough stat points to cap a single stat works best in a system where there are only a small number of stats; TT characters have nine stat points and probably if you were going to go with some sort of scaling cap you'd want to plan for characters gaining more bonus points each on level.)


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