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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 18:09 
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Joined: 08 Jun 2014, 18:58
Posts: 216
Game name: Lucy
The next round IS the playtesting - all chaos is testing is if there are any bugs, or anything unbalanced to the extent of being totally broken; we need an actual round with the game's real rules to see how it works out in practice. 'Genius' idea, I know.

To address a recent point - yes, it would be good if items displayed both the old and new stats in their descriptions. Personally, I don't think there needs to be an option to only show one or the other; unless there are odd UI constraints I'm unaware of.
(Another WoW analogy - the game has 'basic' and 'advanced' tooltips. The difference being 'basic' says things like 'use ferocious bite when you have a lot of energy and combo points to do a lot of damage!' while advanced says things like 'Ferocious bite costs 50 energy, and does 225%-250% weapon damage per combo point.' The basic is even simpler than the current messages here - focusing mainly on why one would want that stat - while the advanced gives some - but actually not all - mechanical data.)

Hmm, the other comment I have on recent posts is I don't think it's the AP penalty that's the problem, but rather the ease of getting a high positive bonus to it now. You shouldn' be able to have the maximum ap reduction possible from a single item; and yet, right now, you can.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 18:15 
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014, 02:37
Posts: 469
Game name: Kari Pink
Varn wrote:
The next round IS the playtesting - all chaos is testing is if there are any bugs, or anything unbalanced to the extent of being totally broken; we need an actual round with the game's real rules to see how it works out in practice. 'Genius' idea, I know.
That is why we had a test server I thought. To test serious changes like this. Instead of testing it on the test server, we are effectively risking an entire round, and potentially making it mostly unplayable, to test it on the live server. :P

Quote:
Hmm, the other comment I have on recent posts is I don't think it's the AP penalty that's the problem, but rather the ease of getting a high positive bonus to it now. You shouldn' be able to have the maximum ap reduction possible from a single item; and yet, right now, you can.
I recall seeing a few people mentioning you could get AP capped from a single item in the previous system as well. It leads back into not messing with the numbers till we actually got to test them. Returning them right back to, or stronger, just means we don't get to properly test it.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 18:24 
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014, 21:57
Posts: 655
Game name: Alexander Dantes
pretty sick playtesting, that. maybe next time try it with a pool of 20 items or so first so nobody has to spend 3 days grinding numbers. unless you honestly think Judoo's going to roll the changes back after all this effort even if the system ends up not working at all


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 19:44 
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Transformania Admin
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Joined: 12 May 2014, 23:29
Posts: 1055
Game name: changes every player
Stats conversion has been a result of weeks of idea-gathering and a couple more weeks of coding effort from both Arrhae and myself. A very long window was provided for people to propose their ideas and debate the merits of others'. This is not something that can simply be rolled back and shrugged off. The round will not launch with the current setup, but neither will everything be zapped back to how it was before.

Also keep in mind that it's impossible to accurately get a good idea when there are only 20 items that have been converted. The more forms/items/pets there are, the more possibility to min-max and be selective about what gear you want, try rack up the highest possible amount of points in one category with negatives of your own choice. The same concept applies to a test server with only 5 players.

Furthermore, something you don't seem to comprehend, it's now trivially easy to change the system again, to rename the fields, alter how they print out (ie, Varn's simple vs advanced tooltip), and change the balanacing. Don't like the 4 substats per stat? Remove two of them, done. Want to get rid of misfire entirely? Take out base chance of it happening and remove that as an effect of a stat. Done. The number of ingame effects could easily be halved or doubled. Done.

Some new numbers for anyone interested:

Spoiler:
// new system
public decimal HealthBonusPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
0.5F * Discipline() +
-0.25F * Allure() +
(float)FromForm_HealthBonusPercent +
(float)FromItems_HealthBonusPercent +
(float)FromEffects_HealthBonusPercent
);
}

public decimal ManaBonusPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
1.0F * Magicka() +
-.25F * Succour()
);
}

public decimal ExtraSkillCriticalPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
.5F * Luck() +
-.25F * Discipline()
);
}

public decimal HealthRecoveryPerUpdate()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
.5F * Succour()
);
}

public decimal ManaRecoveryPerUpdate()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
.5F * Succour()
);
}

public decimal SneakPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
-1.0F * Fortitude() +
1.25F * Agility() +
-0.5F * Allure()
);
}

public decimal EvasionPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
-0.5F * Fortitude() +
1.0F * Agility()
);
}

public decimal EvasionNegationPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
1.5F * Perception() +
1.0F * Allure() +
-0.5F * Magicka()
);
}

public decimal MeditationExtraMana()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
-.25F * Perception() +
.5F * Magicka()
);
}

public decimal CleanseExtraHealth()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
.25F * Discipline() +
-.125F * Fortitude()
);
}

public decimal MoveActionPointDiscount()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
-.0125F * Perception() +
.04F * Agility() +
(float)FromForm_MoveActionPointDiscount +
(float)FromItems_MoveActionPointDiscount +
(float)FromEffects_MoveActionPointDiscount
);
}

public decimal SpellExtraTFEnergyPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
1.0F * Charisma() +
1.0F * Magicka() +
-.25F * Succour()
);
}

public decimal SpellExtraHealthDamagePercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
1.0F * Charisma() +
-.25F * Discipline() +
1.5F * Allure()
);
}

public decimal CleanseExtraTFEnergyRemovalPercent()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
-.125F * Magicka() +
.375F * Luck()
);
}

public decimal SpellMisfireChanceReduction()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
.75F * Perception() +
-.125F * Charisma()
);
}

public decimal SpellHealthDamageResistance()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
1.0F * Discipline() +
-.25F * Charisma() +
-.25F * Luck()
);
}

public decimal SpellTFEnergyDamageResistance()
{
return Convert.ToDecimal(
1.0F * Fortitude() +
-.25F * Agility() +
-.1875 * Luck()
);
}

public decimal ExtraInventorySpace()
{
decimal amt = Convert.ToDecimal(
.25F * Fortitude() +
-.025F * Agility()
);

amt = Math.Floor(amt);

return amt;
}


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 20:34 
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014, 21:57
Posts: 655
Game name: Alexander Dantes
If those things were impossible to change I wouldn't whine so much about changing them, it's great that those things are more easily alterable but they're not being altered and probably not going to be altered until way later. I just want a playable mode and this is going to be really not fun as it is now


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 20:52 
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Joined: 08 Jun 2014, 18:58
Posts: 216
Game name: Lucy
Exactly - the test server is enough to find actual bugs, the chaos enough to find the most blatant imbalances; but to get a lot of people playing *as they would in a normal round*, we pretty much have to have a normal round.

Judoo - I like seeing the spoilered bit of code; kind of the inverse of the way I've been thinking about things, and it makes the stating more clear. Are those actually the new numbers? The inventory, at least, is the same as I remember. Since it's in that form, can I suggest maxInventory 0.1*Fortitude -0.05*Agility? That should reduce the bonus so it does not get out of control; and even further reduce the penalty - as negative inventory tends to hurt more than positive inventory helps.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 20:56 
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014, 21:57
Posts: 655
Game name: Alexander Dantes
I just don't think we need full 2500 turn rounds to playtest, why not go with 1500 or so instead? Things dry up after a while anyway. You could even have shorter rounds (say, 1k turns) and test out different arrays of stats. You could even buff item xp to simulate high level pets and items, though I don't think that's necessary. I mean... things are bound to not work out, and wouldn't you rather be stuck in a derpy round for 2 weeks rather than a month?


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 21:04 
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014, 02:37
Posts: 469
Game name: Kari Pink
Judoo wrote:
The same concept applies to a test server with only 5 players.
If you had five people that understood the stats, that did the math, that actually put time and effort into learning the system... Five players are more than enough to test things. I mean, even starting with limited items could work. Start with one item, expand it to two, expand it to three, test it all together and all separately to make sure stats are not overpowered, or too weak, or anything in between.

Even the chaos round is enough to tell if meditate and cleanse give too much MP/WP back, it is enough to tell if a single attack does too much or too little damage, it is enough to tell if tanking stats are out of hand. We had a lot of chance to test the new stats prior to the start of the new round. :\


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 21:18 
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Transformania Admin
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Joined: 12 May 2014, 23:29
Posts: 1055
Game name: changes every player
Getting people to test stuff is not as easy as it sounds. I've often posted in the past about new game features that need to be tested in both global chat and here on the forums to receive no responses at all in days. There's even a dedicated stickied thread for new features on test not yet pushed to live.

Also... the new round hasn't started yet and no start date has been announced. Chaos mode is running exactly as chaos mode should, a time for flaws to be brought out and changed before real gameplay is resumed.

To Varn, the negatives have all been halved except for the extra inventory space coming from agility, which is considerably less. None of the positive values were touched.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 21:25 
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014, 02:37
Posts: 469
Game name: Kari Pink
Judoo wrote:
Getting people to test stuff is not as easy as it sounds. I've often posted in the past about new game features that need to be tested in both global chat and here on the forums to receive no responses at all in days. There's even a dedicated stickied thread for new features on test not yet pushed to live.
If you ever need someone to test something on the server, get Arrhae to slap the shit out of me to do so! <3 I tend to not toy around on the test server myself since I don't always feel comfortable fiddling with things, and I'm not as good with numbers as others... But I will happily do what I can to help. :)


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